Comments on: AWOL Soldiers On Iraq http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/ Fri, 09 Jan 2009 13:34:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1 by: Ron Merritt http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50192 Mon, 04 Sep 2006 19:11:01 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50192 I forgot to mention about the article I posted the link to, All Army personnel should request ANY questionable orders in writing. It is the duty for any military person to disobey illegal orders. If they have the orders in writing and refused them, then they can take that written paper as proof that it is their superiors who should be punished. In this case it doesn\'t say if they have those papers, but this what the military court system is there for. It is never a way out to argue that you where simply following orders. I forgot to mention about the article I posted the link to, All Army personnel should request ANY questionable orders in writing. It is the duty for any military person to disobey illegal orders. If they have the orders in writing and refused them, then they can take that written paper as proof that it is their superiors who should be punished. In this case it doesn\’t say if they have those papers, but this what the military court system is there for. It is never a way out to argue that you where simply following orders.

]]> by: Ron Merritt http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50191 Mon, 04 Sep 2006 19:05:32 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50191 I\'m sorry, I just do not see a widespread acceptance in this country to abandon those things worthy of pride simply out of fear as you state. So far there have been many examples of people being held accountable for actions that are seen to violate our principles. Here is yet another example: http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/02/D8JST4QG0.html I would hope that these soldiers are innocent, but if found guilty, they will get what is coming to them for their actions. I\’m sorry, I just do not see a widespread acceptance in this country to abandon those things worthy of pride simply out of fear as you state. So far there have been many examples of people being held accountable for actions that are seen to violate our principles.

Here is yet another example:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/09/02/D8JST4QG0.html

I would hope that these soldiers are innocent, but if found guilty, they will get what is coming to them for their actions.

]]> by: Ray Grieselhuber http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50175 Mon, 04 Sep 2006 06:16:34 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50175 It comes down to much more than a need to satisfy feelings of guilt. What I am saying is that we are abandoning the very things that are worthy of pride out of fear. It comes down to much more than a need to satisfy feelings of guilt. What I am saying is that we are abandoning the very things that are worthy of pride out of fear.

]]> by: Ron Merritt http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50149 Sun, 03 Sep 2006 15:06:09 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50149 I do believe it is dangerous to be prideful, but it is also important to believe in yourself and your country. After all, I believe it is our belief in American exceptionalism that drives our need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the rest of the world. That doesn't mean we shouldn't give ourselves credit where credit is due, and tear ourselves down needlessly to satisfy some feelings of guilt. I do believe it is dangerous to be prideful, but it is also important to believe in yourself and your country. After all, I believe it is our belief in American exceptionalism that drives our need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than the rest of the world. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t give ourselves credit where credit is due, and tear ourselves down needlessly to satisfy some feelings of guilt.

]]> by: Ray Grieselhuber http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50121 Sun, 03 Sep 2006 01:57:07 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-50121 Ron, I know that our country has done many great humanitarian deeds. That's a good thing, and I'm not complaining about those. We should be doing more. But this doesn't make us sacred. Any nation that views themselves as sacred is in serious error. If we are truly interested in being a great nation, we should constantly question our motives and our actions. Ron,

I know that our country has done many great humanitarian deeds. That’s a good thing, and I’m not complaining about those. We should be doing more.

But this doesn’t make us sacred. Any nation that views themselves as sacred is in serious error. If we are truly interested in being a great nation, we should constantly question our motives and our actions.

]]> by: Ron Merritt http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49999 Fri, 01 Sep 2006 17:32:55 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49999 <!-- spamk : Comment text: 'Ray, think you misunderstood my point. What I am saying by pointing out that we should all be considered innocent until proven guilty in the court of law is just that. People who are proven to be guilty of committing a crime should always be held accountable. On the flip side, continuing to spread unsubstantiated claims against our country and its institutions made by people who's credibility has been severely hurt by breaking the law themselves, does a grave disservice to our service men and women who put their lives on the line for our country. I also disagree with your premise that there is nothing sacred about America or its military. Regardless of any of our shortcomings (And every country has them because humans are involved), we are a great and wonderful nation. No nation in the history of the world has done more for humanitarian efforts world-wide, nor has there been a military who has spent more money and resources on protecting human life and avoiding innocent casualties. No nation on the earth currently has the capability that we do to target our enemies with as much surgical precision so that innocents are spared. This is not to say that there aren't casualties but keep the perspective in what we have accomplished compared to ANY other country in the world today (or even compared to our own history) when it comes to warfare. We live in a country that is so prosperous that those who are considered living in poverty are many many times more likely to have health problems due to being overweight than by starving! They are likely to have multiple TVs and even multiple motor vehicles and would be considered wealthy by many third world nations standards of living. We live in a country that is so prosperous that we can afford to have a volunteer only military and that a vast majority of our citizens can go about their daily lives during wartime and pretend that nothing is happening, and in fact not have to suffer any direct personal sacrifice because of it. Compare that to WWII rationing. We live in a country where freedom of religion still exists at levels still unheard of in most of the world. You can't find such freedom in countries like Iran or Somalia unless you wish to be considered "Dihimmi" (Second class citizen). Even in Iraq and Afghanistan, you risk execution for apostasy or evangelizing. There are so many reasons I could cite and those are just a small sample of reasons I believe America to be sacred in ways few other countries are. Sure we have our shortcomings because "to err is human", that doesn't mean we should simply throw the baby out with the bath water. A diamond in the rough is no less valuable if it has some dirt on it. ' matched ((holdem&#166;texas&#166;poker&#166;casino&#166;online&#166;gambl&#166;blackjack&#166;game&#166;free).*){2,} --> Ray, think you misunderstood my point. What I am saying by pointing out that we should all be considered innocent until proven guilty in the court of law is just that. People who are proven to be guilty of committing a crime should always be held accountable. On the flip side, continuing to spread unsubstantiated claims against our country and its institutions made by people who's credibility has been severely hurt by breaking the law themselves, does a grave disservice to our service men and women who put their lives on the line for our country. I also disagree with your premise that there is nothing sacred about America or its military. Regardless of any of our shortcomings (And every country has them because humans are involved), we are a great and wonderful nation. No nation in the history of the world has done more for humanitarian efforts world-wide, nor has there been a military who has spent more money and resources on protecting human life and avoiding innocent casualties. No nation on the earth currently has the capability that we do to target our enemies with as much surgical precision so that innocents are spared. This is not to say that there aren't casualties but keep the perspective in what we have accomplished compared to ANY other country in the world today (or even compared to our own history) when it comes to warfare. We live in a country that is so prosperous that those who are considered living in poverty are many many times more likely to have health problems due to being overweight than by starving! They are likely to have multiple TVs and even multiple motor vehicles and would be considered wealthy by many third world nations standards of living. We live in a country that is so prosperous that we can afford to have a volunteer only military and that a vast majority of our citizens can go about their daily lives during wartime and pretend that nothing is happening, and in fact not have to suffer any direct personal sacrifice because of it. Compare that to WWII rationing. We live in a country where freedom of religion still exists at levels still unheard of in most of the world. You can't find such freedom in countries like Iran or Somalia unless you wish to be considered "Dihimmi" (Second class citizen). Even in Iraq and Afghanistan, you risk execution for apostasy or evangelizing. There are so many reasons I could cite and those are just a small sample of reasons I believe America to be sacred in ways few other countries are. Sure we have our shortcomings because "to err is human", that doesn't mean we should simply throw the baby out with the bath water. A diamond in the rough is no less valuable if it has some dirt on it.

Ray, think you misunderstood my point. What I am saying by pointing out that we should all be considered innocent until proven guilty in the court of law is just that. People who are proven to be guilty of committing a crime should always be held accountable.
On the flip side, continuing to spread unsubstantiated claims against our country and its institutions made by people who’s credibility has been severely hurt by breaking the law themselves, does a grave disservice to our service men and women who put their lives on the line for our country.

I also disagree with your premise that there is nothing sacred about America or its military. Regardless of any of our shortcomings (And every country has them because humans are involved), we are a great and wonderful nation. No nation in the history of the world has done more for humanitarian efforts world-wide, nor has there been a military who has spent more money and resources on protecting human life and avoiding innocent casualties. No nation on the earth currently has the capability that we do to target our enemies with as much surgical precision so that innocents are spared. This is not to say that there aren’t casualties but keep the perspective in what we have accomplished compared to ANY other country in the world today (or even compared to our own history) when it comes to warfare.
We live in a country that is so prosperous that those who are considered living in poverty are many many times more likely to have health problems due to being overweight than by starving! They are likely to have multiple TVs and even multiple motor vehicles and would be considered wealthy by many third world nations standards of living.
We live in a country that is so prosperous that we can afford to have a volunteer only military and that a vast majority of our citizens can go about their daily lives during wartime and pretend that nothing is happening, and in fact not have to suffer any direct personal sacrifice because of it. Compare that to WWII rationing.
We live in a country where freedom of religion still exists at levels still unheard of in most of the world. You can’t find such freedom in countries like Iran or Somalia unless you wish to be considered “Dihimmi” (Second class citizen). Even in Iraq and Afghanistan, you risk execution for apostasy or evangelizing.

There are so many reasons I could cite and those are just a small sample of reasons I believe America to be sacred in ways few other countries are. Sure we have our shortcomings because “to err is human”, that doesn’t mean we should simply throw the baby out with the bath water. A diamond in the rough is no less valuable if it has some dirt on it.

]]> by: Ray Grieselhuber http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49914 Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:43:51 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49914 Ben, I can appreciate what you're saying. Are you over there, already, by the way? Here's the deal from my perspective: I know that we're not getting the full story on Iraq, Afghanistan, or anything else. I've spent enough time overseas to know that, despite all rhetoric to the contrary, our media actually spends most of its time supporting the actions of our government. The few stories, like this, are not even from the American media. I know also that the members of the military who are in Iraq are working under extremely difficult circumstances. But I think that we both know that military recruiters actively target young men who come from poor backgrounds without many opportunities for higher education. Many of these guys come from broken homes. So it doesn't surprise me that there are quite a few bad apples out there. To say this doesn't mean that I'm criticizing people like you. On the flip side, people who do join the military should understand that the private citizens who finance these operations have high standards for all conduct. I personally find it sickening to hear stories of abuse and torture. There is nothing un-American about demanding professional behavior, even in a campagin that I believe is inherently wrong to begin with. Ron, regarding the article you mentioned: of course it's disgusting that this man was attacked. I have to disagree with your second to last sentence: "When we impugn America and its soldiers, we impugn us all." There is nothing sacred about America or its military. We should never consider ourselves or any member of our society above question or criticism. Openness about this sort of thing is the only thing that will keep our society healthy (such as it is). Ben,

I can appreciate what you’re saying. Are you over there, already, by the way?

Here’s the deal from my perspective: I know that we’re not getting the full story on Iraq, Afghanistan, or anything else. I’ve spent enough time overseas to know that, despite all rhetoric to the contrary, our media actually spends most of its time supporting the actions of our government. The few stories, like this, are not even from the American media.

I know also that the members of the military who are in Iraq are working under extremely difficult circumstances. But I think that we both know that military recruiters actively target young men who come from poor backgrounds without many opportunities for higher education. Many of these guys come from broken homes. So it doesn’t surprise me that there are quite a few bad apples out there. To say this doesn’t mean that I’m criticizing people like you.

On the flip side, people who do join the military should understand that the private citizens who finance these operations have high standards for all conduct. I personally find it sickening to hear stories of abuse and torture. There is nothing un-American about demanding professional behavior, even in a campagin that I believe is inherently wrong to begin with.

Ron, regarding the article you mentioned: of course it’s disgusting that this man was attacked.

I have to disagree with your second to last sentence: “When we impugn America and its soldiers, we impugn us all.” There is nothing sacred about America or its military. We should never consider ourselves or any member of our society above question or criticism. Openness about this sort of thing is the only thing that will keep our society healthy (such as it is).

]]> by: Ron Merritt http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49913 Thu, 31 Aug 2006 14:27:35 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49913 So far, any soldiers who have been shown to violate standards of behavior have been prosecuted (Abu Gharib). These people might not have been held accountable if soldiers who stood as witnesses against them simply went AWOL. When you sign that paper and take that oath, you are confirming a contract with America, that means each soldier is contracting with you, me and our country that they will serve for a certain amount of time. I know we talk about many accusations against our soldiers behavior (Much of it unsubstantiated) but what doesn\'t get spoken about is the behavior of our own citizens against said soldiers. Between extremely offensive funereal protesters to stories like the following, where a National Guardsmen was brutally attacked by supposed \"Peace Activists\". http://www.kirotv.com/news/9765757/detail.html What many of us seem to forget is, these soldiers are our neighbors, friends, relatives and fellow church members. Let us not forget that when we impugn America and it\'s soldiers, we impugn us all. Remember, we should all be considered innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. So far, any soldiers who have been shown to violate standards of behavior have been prosecuted (Abu Gharib). These people might not have been held accountable if soldiers who stood as witnesses against them simply went AWOL.

When you sign that paper and take that oath, you are confirming a contract with America, that means each soldier is contracting with you, me and our country that they will serve for a certain amount of time.

I know we talk about many accusations against our soldiers behavior (Much of it unsubstantiated) but what doesn\’t get spoken about is the behavior of our own citizens against said soldiers. Between extremely offensive funereal protesters to stories like the following, where a National Guardsmen was brutally attacked by supposed \”Peace Activists\”.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/9765757/detail.html

What many of us seem to forget is, these soldiers are our neighbors, friends, relatives and fellow church members. Let us not forget that when we impugn America and it\’s soldiers, we impugn us all. Remember, we should all be considered innocent until proven guilty in the court of law.

]]> by: Benjamin http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49894 Thu, 31 Aug 2006 08:37:25 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49894 Morale is high here, except when it comes to mainstream media coverage and stories about random AWOL soldiers. Want to know what discourages a good soldier the most? When America\'s own media and citizens offer criticism of their job and discusses two soldiers going AWOL when there are thousands serving heroically overseas every day. That\'s discouraging. Morale is high here, except when it comes to mainstream media coverage and stories about random AWOL soldiers. Want to know what discourages a good soldier the most? When America\’s own media and citizens offer criticism of their job and discusses two soldiers going AWOL when there are thousands serving heroically overseas every day. That\’s discouraging.

]]> by: Ron Merritt http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49825 Wed, 30 Aug 2006 20:52:59 +0000 http://www.firewatching.com/ray/blog/2006/08/27/awol-soldiers-on-iraq/#comment-49825 P, the first link you provide appears to have information that's about 2 years old. The second link, I admit I only skimmed and didn't see any mention of military reqruitment goals. If you want links, just a quick internet search turned up these articles: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/10/81258.shtml?s=us http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1682207.html http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,96821,00.html http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,93876,00.html Keep in mind the reqruiting goals have been going up not down. And as for recruiting forign nationals, I have absolutely NO problem whatsoever with someone gaining US citizenship, proving it by putting their life on the line for our country. P, the first link you provide appears to have information that’s about 2 years old.
The second link, I admit I only skimmed and didn’t see any mention of military reqruitment goals.

If you want links, just a quick internet search turned up these articles:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/6/10/81258.shtml?s=us
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/1682207.html
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,96821,00.html
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,93876,00.html

Keep in mind the reqruiting goals have been going up not down.
And as for recruiting forign nationals, I have absolutely NO problem whatsoever with someone gaining US citizenship, proving it by putting their life on the line for our country.

]]>